tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post1250846938626413807..comments2024-03-26T22:17:42.458-04:00Comments on Semper Initiativus Unum: More Dragons in the DungeonsWayne Rossihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11347401495298367324noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-32738520367471583172015-10-01T13:01:07.908-04:002015-10-01T13:01:07.908-04:00Dragons aren't only present in the Christian M...Dragons aren't only present in the Christian Middle Ages; the size of the ones represented in that context is, as it has already mentioned, not too big. <br /><br />Now, the culture conditions the representation of symbols, and a Christian religion isn't going to bestow the attribute of "greatness" to anything but God. Since the devil in such a context is so often the dragon as well, it may appear diminished.<br /><br />While in other cultures, the Dragon is "God" (Hindu, Chinese, etc.), and then it's not small in size (nor meaning) but huge, having names like Ananta (Infinite).<br /><br />Thus I consider "the Smaug factor" a good one to have into account.<br /><br />PS. In AD&D Dragons increased in power with the release of the post-Dragonlance setting Forgotten Realms boxed set. This was inherited to 2nd edition.Axel Castillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09603801985068174718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-16316572655515173212015-09-28T12:56:27.827-04:002015-09-28T12:56:27.827-04:00Here's an excellent long-lost piece of art by ...Here's an excellent long-lost piece of art by Jim Roslof in the current auction... it depicts a party battling a small blue dragon (though the dragon is breathing flames). The dragon isn't much bigger than the knight battling it, but look at the pile of treasure... and there's the thief, doing his usual sneaky thing. And the other two members of the party stay well away, ready to loose arrows as the knight takes on the dragon sword to claw... classic!<br /><br />http://www.ebay.com/itm/TSR-Dungeon-Hobby-Shop-Envelope-Story-Art-Original-1980-Signed-Laura-Roslof-/121772098669?hash=item1c5a2ec46dJames Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-52825393793781222002015-09-23T13:13:01.228-04:002015-09-23T13:13:01.228-04:00Definitely agree. I've been too influenced by ...Definitely agree. I've been too influenced by the Smaug factor. I do love Tolkein, but in this respect he's been holding me back for years. I need to change that.Chris C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08655640273250716377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-49127031414258033402015-09-15T15:37:25.086-04:002015-09-15T15:37:25.086-04:00Excellent post, and I wholeheartedly agree. A whi...Excellent post, and I wholeheartedly agree. A while back, I had come to the conclusion that a B/X white dragon was about equivalent in size and bulk to a tiger, given their very similar HD and damage stats. The estimate of the physical size of a Type H treasure hoard here really completes the picture in my mind of a dungeon-dwelling dragon. waywardwayfarerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00338700537762637962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-28105118852581779202015-09-15T14:48:07.708-04:002015-09-15T14:48:07.708-04:00There's a young, small black dragon on level 1...There's a young, small black dragon on level 1 of my version of Castle Greyhawk. My boys have encountered it after battling its lizardmen minions for several rounds, and ran away before they were engaged by it. (It's hissing threats getting louder as it approached broke their morale ;) ).<br /><br />Allan. grodoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11800184312511280050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-22040381312091542812015-09-15T13:24:27.358-04:002015-09-15T13:24:27.358-04:00While I'm with you on using smaller dragons, I...While I'm with you on using smaller dragons, I do have to point out that medieval art often employed distorted proportions and scales. A dragon might look smaller than its slayer because it's inferior and of less importance, not because it would be physically smallerHolly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-67698687237386606382015-09-15T06:28:27.487-04:002015-09-15T06:28:27.487-04:00I appreciate the correction, thanks Geoffrey.I appreciate the correction, thanks Geoffrey.Wayne R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04118962136054206381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-35133458305136718082015-09-15T01:48:57.328-04:002015-09-15T01:48:57.328-04:00Smaug: 200ft wing span, larger than colossal categ...Smaug: 200ft wing span, larger than colossal category.<br />Horde: Gold in great hall filled with coins and other loot looks about the volume of the great pyramid (88,000,000 cubic feet). <br />In d&d terms I would say 400gp/cubic feet. 35,200,000,000gp with arkenstone worth another 1/14th of previous total.<br /><br />Arkenstone(2,707,692,308gp) <br />By comparison 1/10th lb diamond worth 10,000gp. If Arkenstone were a diamond it would need to be in excess of twelve tons.Sean Robert Meaneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16273566549106707316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-84520017544082407992015-09-15T01:30:31.588-04:002015-09-15T01:30:31.588-04:00Throughout B/X and 1E AD&D, dragons held prett...Throughout B/X and 1E AD&D, dragons held pretty steady in power, and were suitable opponents for even 1st to 3rd level characters. Note that the BIG bruisers in B/X were the giants, not introduced until the Expert set!<br /><br />In the AD&D DMG, dragons started out as class III monsters on the random encounter tables; level III monsters were encountered on a 1 in 20 chance on a 1st level dungeon, with dragons encountered on a roll of 31 or 32 on the % table; thus, literally, a 1 in 1000 chance of randomly encountering dragons on a 1st level dungeon! These would of course be Very Young dragons, black, brass, or white... and then the chances of *randomly* encountering a dragon went up every level deeper into the dungeon, until with Monster Level X, the chance of an encounter with a dragon (or multiple dragons, ancient, old, and very old) was 10%... and at that level, encountering Bahamut or Tiamat randomly was a non-zero chance (on the 10th level of the dungeon, in fact, it was a 1 in 1000 chance of *randomly* encountering either of them)!<br /><br />The real inflation in dragon power came with 2nd edition AD&D and with the Companion level rules of D&D. In 2E, dragons simply got boosted all over the place, hit dice, powers, attacks, damage, etc., just went way overboard. In the case of the Companion set, Mentzer added "Medium" and "Large" dragons, with the dragons of the Basic set being re-classed as "Small" dragons; this was of course to enable dragons to be a challenge at almost all levels of play... there was even an "Exalted" class of "dragon-related beings," the Draedens, very Azathothesque, at Immortal level...James Mishlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03510782553325944558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-49707800212364501672015-09-15T00:08:19.316-04:002015-09-15T00:08:19.316-04:00I shall uphold this initiative. I shall uphold this initiative. Johnny F. Normalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13290656343479879897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-62295111977358637342015-09-14T19:41:33.274-04:002015-09-14T19:41:33.274-04:00Great post. I am right on board with dragons that ...Great post. I am right on board with dragons that can crawl through 10' by 10' corridors. Look at the size of the dragon St. George killed, and that's my picture of the size of D&D dragons. One nit-pick, though:<br /><br />"Dragons went up in hit points significantly in the first edition PHB."<br /><br />No. The dragons in the AD&D Monster Manual have exactly the same hit points as do dragons in Supplement I: GREYHAWK. The GREYHAWK supplement allowed for dragons to have up to 8 hit points per hit die, while in the 1974 rules dragons have only up to 6 hit points per hit dice. Where GREYHAWK really added to the power of dragons was in giving them 3 attacks per round (rather than 1), with the bite doing up to 3-36 points of damage (rather than 1-6).Geoffrey McKinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042661843714609025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5377543525075660166.post-75503877485791354492015-09-14T15:41:36.746-04:002015-09-14T15:41:36.746-04:00Hear hear.Hear hear.HitAdjacentAllyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08632582325567098655noreply@blogger.com